Curse

Morte66 · Mar 21, 2012, 02:26 PM // 14:26

As if Silent Surf wasn't enough, I'm now hacking away at Morostov trail with my trusty heroes on various characters. It seems a bit slower/harder, at least so far -- for ~302 kills I'm taking 35 to 45 minutes, picking up all loot, no cons.

I wonder if anybody has any general advice for playing with heroes, in particular:
- are there any standout routes for non-split play
- should I seek or avoid the popups
- any thoughts on cons, partiularly Essence of Celerity, that wouldn't be obvious from trying it a couple of times?

Any thoughts, suggestions, anectodes, or general navel gazing would be welcome.

As for builds... The best times I've got are on my sin (narrowly beating my warrior) with this build:

SoH is microed on me. The dual inepttude mesmers are really good in this physical heavy area; the BiP keeps them going and losing SoGM off the commune rit is a small price to pay for it. I keep thinking the Panic mesmer could be changed for more damage, but whenever I try it (e.g. EA fire ele) I go slower and I'm not sure why.

I've run a frontlining spirit spammer rit with bomber + fire eles + mesmers, which worked quite well but the Consume Soul spam really hurts.

On y Ele, I tried my usual AP/air dungeoneering team (2 hero backline), which is not as quick -- it seems to miss the frontliner balling. I did find AP + Meteor Swarm more effective than usual because there are a lot of ranged foes who bunch and stand still, and the Ebon sin stays alive long enough for the knockdowns to start.

My necro (AP/MoP) and mesmer (Wastrel's Panic or Ap-AE-EWAS) didn't do as well as the Ele.

Maya Cerestiez · Mar 21, 2012, 03:38 PM // 15:38

I would skip UA and BiP and bring more AoE damage like FoC on necro or something eleish. Do you really need 2 ineptitude?

aspi · Mar 21, 2012, 04:03 PM // 16:03

^ I would not skip the UA in morostov, with no so many protection and many spike possibilities there it's not unlikely you will die as frontliner.
I would try to get MoP in there though and make myself a war secondary for SY.
There have been topics about this before and quite a lot faster. Myself I think I drop SOS and took Clamour of souls because you move so fast from mob to mob sos was not so handy for me.
Panic is for the earth warders I think? Too bad they are usualy behind their melee line enough for panic to be of any good.

Morte66 · Mar 21, 2012, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maya Cerestiez

I would skip UA and BiP and bring more AoE damage like FoC on necro or something eleish. Do you really need 2 ineptitude?

I die enough to need UA.

And it's not costing much on the bomber, it's not like any of the usual bomber elites are that special. And FoC would need points in curses, UA costs no attribute points.

I don't need 2 ineptitude, but it cut 5 minutes off the time when I swapped it in for an ele -- it's there as damage, the shutdown is bonus. But I do wonder if I could refactor the mesmers somehow, maybe I could get more useful secondary stuff on them. Also if they didn't have Clumsiness they might get by without the BiP, but Clumsiness is good damage so I want something decent in return.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by aspi

^ I would not skip the UA in morostov, with no so many protection and many spike possibilities there it's not unlikely you will die as frontliner.

Quite right.

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I would try to get MoP in there though and make myself a war secondary for SY.

I've tried an AP/MoP hero (which works at keeping MoP going), but I had a couple of problems. One is gettign the hero to cast MoP at the right time (needs micro), the other is that the monster AI is treating MoP as scattering AoE these days, unlike the rest of the build.

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Panic is for the earth warders I think? Too bad they are usualy behind their melee line enough for panic to be of any good.

That was the biggest reason, yes, though as you say it has problems. It can also be handy if you aggro lots of dragon moss + blood drinker at once. I find that if I switch it to ESurge I have to be a little more careful, which leaves the time back where I started.

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Myself I think I drop SOS and took Clamour of souls because you move so fast from mob to mob sos was not so handy for me.

Well, I think that's the really question. "Do sprits and minions slow you down" is a well-discussed subject. I think I might save 3-5 minutes of waiting by not having spirts and minions, but they do a lot of damage and they soak up enough to let me drop a healer.

Quote:

There have been topics about this before and quite a lot faster.

I did search. I found people going a lot faster in player teams with splits, or using heroes with consets, or not looting, or avoiding the popups. But I have a feeling I might have missed something. In particular, I wonder if there's something one needs to know about routes or quests.

CrazyFarmer · Mar 21, 2012, 06:06 PM // 18:06

I do an average 40min vanquish, running the standard Discordway Team Build.

aspi · Mar 21, 2012, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Indeed there is talk of a use of BU to speed things up in an older topic, that guy used this build for his team:

bu is quite easy to come by but then again you might want to try out your own build with the use of a BU instead of someone elses.
This guywas using a standard WOTA sin so pretty similar to yours. Only he got runs of 23 minutes almost everytime.

Lyv · Mar 21, 2012, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Which route do you usually take ?
I start from Unwaking -> Vasburg by the northern path, then the southern part, finishing in the lake. Can't remember if it's the same as the route used for MTSC...

About the build : if you try to ball mobs, you could swap the BiP hero for a RoJ monk (16-specced SoH, blood ritual if you need it, some prots). Wardens tend to ball up nicely. I never tried playing with 2 splinter though, so I can't say if it will be profitable to ditch one.
Panic seems a bit overkill for general vanquish ; I would take 2 E-surgers (or 1 RoJ/1 E-surge) instead of Panic+Inept.

I usually get 30/35 min times with such a setup (picking loot, no cons, playing R/A or R/D), although I found it to be a few minutes faster when playing caster (different team, of course).

Drk Dervish · Mar 21, 2012, 07:29 PM // 19:29

I would drop UA in a sec. In HM with the exception of elite area and couple end game area there is no need for UA because you "should not" really die with the right balance team. You do need to add couple more of heal skill, probably why your dying so much. I would move the Bip down to Icy Veins and drop Icy Vein. Replace that UA with discord/mm. Since your using communing sprite is a waste not to use SoGM. Other then that should be good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aspi

Indeed there is talk of a use of BU to speed things up in an older topic, that guy used this build for his team:
http://s3.postimage.org/m9duus722/bns.png

As for this one I have no idea why he would wasnt two slots on those mes for energy management when he already have a battery in the team. I understand may just 1 WNWN but Channeling i think just a waste. I run 4 mes with zero Insp energy management and they rarely hurting for energy. Unless i over aggro and jack shit up myself and prolong the fight, but usually the group drop fast enough before 2nd set of Bip is use on mes.

Morte66 · Mar 21, 2012, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by aspi

Indeed there is talk of a use of BU to speed things up in an older topic, that guy used this build for his team:
http://s3.postimage.org/m9duus722/bns.png
This guywas using a standard WOTA sin so pretty similar to yours. Only he got runs of 23 minutes almost everytime.

Thanks. 23 minutes is quite the eyebrow raiser.

That is very much a build for a BU, it'with no fallback chain. You can see it's an old build, the ER wouldn't run Shield Guardian anymore. It's got slightly more heal/prot than me, but no minions, so I'd call it more aggressive over all.

What I'd really like to know is how he tackled the mobs with multiple earth eles using that -- I pull onto minions and let them take the heat while my sin goes after the eles.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyv

Which route do you usually take ?
I start from Unwaking -> Vasburg by the northern path, then the southern part, finishing in the lake. Can't remember if it's the same as the route used for MTSC...

Roughly this, with some wiggle for spawns and how the locals fight the afflicted:

Quote:

About the build : if you try to ball mobs, you could swap the BiP hero for a RoJ monk (16-specced SoH, blood ritual if you need it, some prots).

Never had much luck with RoJ because of scattering, but I'll give it another try.

Quote:

I never tried playing with 2 splinter though, so I can't say if it will be profitable to ditch one.

2x splinter is glorious, especially combined with Death Blossom. And it's 2x Ancestor's Rage, and making a channeling/communing rit means he can have Spirit Siphon for quasi-bottomless energy.

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Panic seems a bit overkill for general vanquish

I agree. It's something I want to change, but ATM the earth eles are my weakest point and it helps with them.

Quote:

I usually get 30/35 min times with such a setup (picking loot, no cons, playing R/A or R/D), although I found it to be a few minutes faster when playing caster (different team, of course).

How many kills is that? Do you spawn the popups? Do you have the afflicted on the map?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Drk Dervish

I would drop UA in a sec.

I just did a run with SoGM in for UA and lots of FoMF (the most popular standard res). It went badly. When I died, it was because I banzai charged some priority target. And when I got ressed by FoMF I had half health and no energy, so I died again without doing anything.

I think to run without UA I'd need strong prot like bonds or shelter, which would mean reshaping the team, or a change of tactics. I'll give it some thought.

Lyv · Mar 21, 2012, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Never had much luck with RoJ because of scattering, but I'll give it another try.

I find RoJ to be godly on the bottom-right zone of the map. Pull 2-3 groups of Wardens, block the warriors and kill them before they scatter (they do after 3 pulses iirc).

However, I will try with 2x splinter, seems cool

Quote:

How many kills is that? Do you spawn the popups? Do you have the afflicted on the map?

Around 270-280 kills.
I follow the same route as you do, only difference is that I pull the Elem boss at the end to avoid annoying popups, and then go north and west of the lake to finish.
I can't see that making a huge difference, but well...

Standard spawns, no WoC afflicted.

Drk Dervish · Mar 21, 2012, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morte66

Thanks. 23 minutes is quite the eyebrow raiser.

I just did a run with SoGM in for UA and lots of FoMF (the most popular standard res). It went badly. When I died, it was because I banzai charged some priority target. And when I got ressed by FoMF I had half health and no energy, so I died again without doing anything.

I think to run without UA I'd need strong prot like bonds or shelter, which would mean reshaping the team, or a change of tactics. I'll give it some thought.

I still think you need couple more heal maybe 1 life, 1 Spirit Light or Mend Body. You time still ok maybe can cut 5 min off. As for the running average of 23min build in above, i'm kind of doubt it myself base on that team, (even with BU, if you look closely that 7 team build only 5 of them is offensive. Battery and ER isn't attacking. You current build have more attack output then that build). Keep in mind a full SC team run 16-22min (wiki), my experiences with a PUG usually around average of 19min. At least during my sc run to get my title. So a hero team getting average of 23min is well..... I'll stop there...

aspi · Mar 22, 2012, 09:50 AM // 09:50

I don't doubt that guy, if seen faster times with just heros. Take a look at this time:

And thats with an AP build

Here is the topic where that's from:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/7...0494701p2.html

Gabs88 · Mar 22, 2012, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Important to remember that we've had a 50% HP increase on HM mobs in the meantime though. Both the competing times we've seen this far are pre-elementalist patch.

That said, the 35-45 minutes in OP is not a good time. How bad is it? We'll I've seen builds with both MM, ST, 3x Discord (with standard builds), Panic, Shared Burden and a craptastic AP bar with low levels on PVE skills do 40 minutes postpatch. And the one playing them was very far from good too.

greenough · Mar 22, 2012, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drk Dervish

I still think you need couple more heal maybe 1 life, 1 Spirit Light or Mend Body. You time still ok maybe can cut 5 min off. As for the running average of 23min build in above, i'm kind of doubt it myself base on that team, (even with BU, if you look closely that 7 team build only 5 of them is offensive. Battery and ER isn't attacking. You current build have more attack output then that build). Keep in mind a full SC team run 16-22min (wiki), my experiences with a PUG usually around average of 19min. At least during my sc run to get my title. So a hero team getting average of 23min is well..... I'll stop there...

The build at the top was actually a post i made a long time ago and i was getting 23 minute runs. I improved it after posting that and remember getting 21's and 22's using more mez's with a somewhat similar build to the pic above but with a little more heals and a wota sin. I haven't done it in a while so im not sure how the WoC change has effected times.

As far as OP talking about earth ele's, the 2 places where they spawn just flag your hero's back and then run in and grab argo, then unflag them so all the pressure will be on you. Don't waste time pulling a group at a time, just argo them all, pull them back a little and watch them explode.

drowze · Mar 22, 2012, 12:56 PM // 12:56

I haven't used your build and am not very familiar with MT yet. But some things come to mind, judging from my general playing experience.
If you aren't going /W for SY, then I would go /P take incoming and fall back myself. That opens up a slot on the mesmers for e-management, which enables you to drop the bip.
I would take a roj instead of bip, which means you can slot some healing onto your SoS.
Will be testing out MT myself based on your team though, thanks

Quote:

Originally Posted by aspi

Take a look at this time

If using merc heroes, why not go all the way and use cons as well... that should speed things up also.

hunter · Mar 22, 2012, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by aspi

I don't doubt that guy, if seen faster times with just heros. Take a look at this time:
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/4265/gw100g.jpg
And thats with an AP build

Here is the topic where that's from:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/7...0494701p2.html

Bleh, Jeydra style build with a high chance to wipe, especially at the bottom right corner.

I highly doubt you can pull off 21 min consistently w/o a BU

Morte66 · Mar 22, 2012, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenough

As far as OP talking about earth ele's, the 2 places where they spawn just flag your hero's back and then run in and grab argo, then unflag them so all the pressure will be on you. Don't waste time pulling a group at a time, just argo them all, pull them back a little and watch them explode.

Yeah, I worked that out today. It's much better that way.

I'm getting better at it, I shaved 3-4 mins off with build changes. I also shaved 3-4 mins by removing the afflicted and avoiding popups, which is about 10% less time for about 10% less kills. I'd actually rather have the extra kills, given that I'd probably do the same number of runs in an evening either way. ATM I can just about do ~275 kills in 30 mins with a BU, next goal is the full 300 in 30 mins.

I'd love to know what sort of average times people can get today, with current mechanics, looting, with/without cons.

Quote:

The build at the top was actually a post i made a long time ago and i was getting 23 minute runs. I improved it after posting that and remember getting 21's and 22's [..]

I'm mildly surprised that you can run that route on an empty map in 21 minutes. Actually killing the monsters as well is... pretty impressive.

My one man guild now has half a million faction. How much do you need for an outpost?

greenough · Mar 22, 2012, 06:13 PM // 18:13

My first run today, haven't done this in about a year so it was pretty sketchy, i picked up loot and opened chests and managed to get a 24. Just grabbed the hero's i've been using for bogroots, didn't change one skill. so 21-22 is still easly possible after hp update.

DRGN · Mar 22, 2012, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Haven't done this in like a year either(since I maxed my Kurzick title

) but this kinda piqued my interest. I didn't feel like using a BU so I only registered at a hair over 28. Can post the whole build if you want but I'm sure it'll change and it's hardly optimal. I also blotted out my total playtime so people don't find an excuse for derailment @_@

Might give it another try later with a BU and some tweaks. Shit on Double Dragon if you want, but it works wonders here on a melee character.

Morte66 · Mar 23, 2012, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Greenhough/DRGN, thanks for confirming that I'm not barking up the wrong tree. If I may ask a couple of questions...

Do you use mercs, and if so do you think they make a big difference?

In the southeast corner loop, do you go round clockwise or anticlockwise?

I've seen some promise in ball and spike with an ER bonder keeping the sin alive to do the balling. Do you think this is a good avenue to explore?

Any thoughts on caster vs melee for this? I've been using my sin because he's a new character I'm getting to know, but I do have Ele + Rit + Nec + Monk + Mesmer + Warrior with decent skills and heroes and so on.